I have only ever known two theological worlds. The first is a nondenominational – charismatic – prosperity Gospel world. I spent most of my life in this world. I was a pastor at a mega-church. I saw the error of my theological world largely because of the faithful sermons and books of people like Tim Keller, who was in the reformed world. I resigned from my job just three years after discovering this world.
Then began my journey into the second theological world– The reformed Southern Baptist world. This is the world I’m in right now and the one I have been in for the last eight years. However, the more I study the narrative of the Bible, the less compatible the Calvinist view of sovereignty seems with the narrative Of the Bible. I have noticed some of the inconsistencies you pointed out in this article. But you have also said other things that I need to consider. Thank you for writing this. You have certainly placed some very sharp stones in my shoe.
Indeed the stones are noticed. Pricking away at my sole as they may be, yet ever so stout is my mind. If that made any sense, what I am saying is that I enjoyed this post. I have considered myself to be Calvinist at some point in my journey, while also coming to question certain aspects of it. Yet, God remains and I still much to grow. Thank you my dear friend, thank you.
This topic is one that I’ve been pondering for a quite some time. I think a big aspect of this conversation lies in the definition of love, and more specifically God’s love for us. I have come to believe that true love will always be sacrificial. In a marriage, you sacrifice some of your freedoms and desires for your spouse, in a friendship you sacrifice time and energy for the good of another, etc. This leads me to believe that perhaps God’s love for the human race is partially expressed in the sacrifice of tyrannical control, giving us the freedoms to make choices for ourselves (free will). Just a thought.
Oh yeah he was not putting forward a calvinist position, and he is a catholic so there likely is some thomism there. I think the process is much more organic than the binary/logical view that they explain. I still think it's a good initial way of seeing the possibility of synergy in salvation for folks who are stuck in the calvinist rut.
Awesome post Josh! I have never worn calvinist shoes, but I love reading the rocks you're writing. There is a very hard to describe heaviness that seems to pervade any argument for the fully exercised Sovereignty of God, a grim cloud over His Love. It's great to see folks poking holes in those shadows.
As a new parent myself (my little girl is 6 months old) I think your analogy is spot on! While God *can* control everything, the fact that he chooses not to is a demonstration of how loving he truly is. That he allows us to make our own choices, to make mistakes, and to be recipients of his mercy (should we choose it) is what makes him, in my mind, seem absolutely powerful and holy - not that he dictates every detail.
I also think, building on the quote from Lewis, that there is something beautiful - although sometimes also heartbreaking - about watching what one has created take shape on its own as control is slowly relinquished. If art, and gardens, and children all shaped up exactly as we desired, then where would the fun and challenge be in creating, planting, or teaching? I don't know if that makes sense. But it definitely makes sense that a love freely given is far more deep and rewarding than a love coerced.
BTW just wanted to let you know that I really enjoy this format for your writing. I will take a well-structured blog or paper over a quick social post any day!
Thank you for this thoughtful and beautiful piece. I myself grew up in the same church environments to a degree and after the death of my first child have found myself facing my old view of the sovereignty of God with pain and anger and questions. What you’ve laid out resonates so deeply with the God I believe to be both Sovereign AND still good. 🙏🏼
You took this thought of God's sovereignty in the correct direction considering his Fatherhood and what you could learn from your own.
Not trying to call you out for hypocrisy or anything, just trying to figure out how you would say it: what is it when you "sovereignly" make your son eat the food he doesn't like because you know it's best for him, but he doesn't know that yet.
I know you wouldn't say that's tyranny, but I could see how someone would characterize a similar experience (losing a job or doing a job they don't like) as God being a "tyrant". That experience is intended to help us love and trust God more, but it could also breed bitterness and rebellion.
I have only ever known two theological worlds. The first is a nondenominational – charismatic – prosperity Gospel world. I spent most of my life in this world. I was a pastor at a mega-church. I saw the error of my theological world largely because of the faithful sermons and books of people like Tim Keller, who was in the reformed world. I resigned from my job just three years after discovering this world.
Then began my journey into the second theological world– The reformed Southern Baptist world. This is the world I’m in right now and the one I have been in for the last eight years. However, the more I study the narrative of the Bible, the less compatible the Calvinist view of sovereignty seems with the narrative Of the Bible. I have noticed some of the inconsistencies you pointed out in this article. But you have also said other things that I need to consider. Thank you for writing this. You have certainly placed some very sharp stones in my shoe.
man - so many people take that same journey - and the biggest thing is what you already mentioned :
consistency
There's enough Calvinistic inconsistencies, i think, that ought to push us further into the truth
Indeed the stones are noticed. Pricking away at my sole as they may be, yet ever so stout is my mind. If that made any sense, what I am saying is that I enjoyed this post. I have considered myself to be Calvinist at some point in my journey, while also coming to question certain aspects of it. Yet, God remains and I still much to grow. Thank you my dear friend, thank you.
that's the right way to be, my friend - just open to the questions and after the truth
This topic is one that I’ve been pondering for a quite some time. I think a big aspect of this conversation lies in the definition of love, and more specifically God’s love for us. I have come to believe that true love will always be sacrificial. In a marriage, you sacrifice some of your freedoms and desires for your spouse, in a friendship you sacrifice time and energy for the good of another, etc. This leads me to believe that perhaps God’s love for the human race is partially expressed in the sacrifice of tyrannical control, giving us the freedoms to make choices for ourselves (free will). Just a thought.
i think this is very wise
what if love demands freedom ? demands sacrifice ? and what if, love as a great good, means hard determinism is impossible
This is a great video on how God can be a primary cause of our power/bodies/will but how we also are the ones who have full responsibility of it:
https://youtu.be/1CvSkxus2Kc?si=6v_Q2iRTtsQWDM9o
yeah - I watched some of this interview last week.
from what I remember, he's not really putting forward a calvinist position - even the way your phrased your comment is a lot more Thomistic haha
Oh yeah he was not putting forward a calvinist position, and he is a catholic so there likely is some thomism there. I think the process is much more organic than the binary/logical view that they explain. I still think it's a good initial way of seeing the possibility of synergy in salvation for folks who are stuck in the calvinist rut.
Awesome post Josh! I have never worn calvinist shoes, but I love reading the rocks you're writing. There is a very hard to describe heaviness that seems to pervade any argument for the fully exercised Sovereignty of God, a grim cloud over His Love. It's great to see folks poking holes in those shadows.
totally - i always wondered about it, growing up, and I got all sorts of quick and cliche answers, and lots of appeals to mystery.
but this question, the tyrannical one, nagged at me, incessantly.
As a new parent myself (my little girl is 6 months old) I think your analogy is spot on! While God *can* control everything, the fact that he chooses not to is a demonstration of how loving he truly is. That he allows us to make our own choices, to make mistakes, and to be recipients of his mercy (should we choose it) is what makes him, in my mind, seem absolutely powerful and holy - not that he dictates every detail.
I also think, building on the quote from Lewis, that there is something beautiful - although sometimes also heartbreaking - about watching what one has created take shape on its own as control is slowly relinquished. If art, and gardens, and children all shaped up exactly as we desired, then where would the fun and challenge be in creating, planting, or teaching? I don't know if that makes sense. But it definitely makes sense that a love freely given is far more deep and rewarding than a love coerced.
BTW just wanted to let you know that I really enjoy this format for your writing. I will take a well-structured blog or paper over a quick social post any day!
( congrats on the little one ! )
that makes a lot of sense - programming the shape seems a lot less of a romantic adventure and a lot more like a tyranny.
freely given, freely received, and free to grow wildly
Thank you for this thoughtful and beautiful piece. I myself grew up in the same church environments to a degree and after the death of my first child have found myself facing my old view of the sovereignty of God with pain and anger and questions. What you’ve laid out resonates so deeply with the God I believe to be both Sovereign AND still good. 🙏🏼
i am so sorry for that loss - i can't imagine it
ive been in the place of anger and asking questions, too -
You took this thought of God's sovereignty in the correct direction considering his Fatherhood and what you could learn from your own.
Not trying to call you out for hypocrisy or anything, just trying to figure out how you would say it: what is it when you "sovereignly" make your son eat the food he doesn't like because you know it's best for him, but he doesn't know that yet.
I know you wouldn't say that's tyranny, but I could see how someone would characterize a similar experience (losing a job or doing a job they don't like) as God being a "tyrant". That experience is intended to help us love and trust God more, but it could also breed bitterness and rebellion.